New balancing system

Give your thoughts and ideas.

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What do you think of the new balancing system ?

I prefer the old system and want the GAs to do team balancing.
4
44%
I like this system but the PR dif allowed need to be adjusted. (explain why and how much).
5
56%
I like this new system and I think a PR dif allowed of 100 is perfect.
0
No votes
I think that a team who is losing at score, but having more than 100 PR than other team should not be allowed to swap.
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 9

New balancing system

Postby Judge Dead » Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:56 am

The 1175 contain the new balancing system I was working on.

Arena portals will not let you enter if PR between the two teams is over 100. Server warn you and let you know you can use !teamswap command.
This command only work in bases. Using it will instantly move you to the other team. And it work only if PR dif is over 100 and from the strongest team to the other, nor inversly.

This the way I found to let players balance themselve the teams and also enforce them to do it.

GAs keep all rights to manage teams if it's needed.

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Re: New balancing system

Postby fuzzylilkitten » Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:04 am

I don't like it, and I think it's a very bad system.

Players should be in charge of balancing, yes, however they should not be forced to do so if they do not want to.

Example of why this is terrible:

Evil PR and Good PR is 400 to 400. Evil team gets a 5-10 point lead because their composition is better so good team slowly log off/go to keeper. Now the players on evil, that got the upper hand for whatever reason (comp, teamwork, less cows, etc) are forced to join the losing team.

As I've told awet every single time he tries to balance the rounds, I personally do not like being thrown on to the team that I helped defeat. There's no point to try and win now if the other team can just rage log and force you to join the opposing team.

Edit: Almost forgot. If the opposing team drops PR when there's 5-10 minutes left in the round, I'm forced to sit in the base for that time and leech or join the other team for a loss. Not appealing choices.
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Re: New balancing system

Postby darkwaffle » Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:12 am

I'd much rather deal with counterlogging than "relying" on a DM to "fix" a round. The worst part is now that it's supposedly the DM's "responsibility" the players dont shoulder the burden at all, they're welcome to be complete asshats and just let the "balancers" figure it out. Further, it weakens the constitution of the player base as they now don't need to try so hard to build competent teams that work together, because well hell, they don't need to try different builds or characters since they can just complain the teams are unbalanced instead. Further, the people with the power to balance all have different ideas of what needs balanced and there's no right answer. Is it balanced if a team has 400 PR and two casters and the other team has 400 PR and no casters? What if the second team is winning? What if the score is tied? What if one of the casters is divine and one is arcane? Which team gets which? What if one's a bard? What if one's a PM? There's a thousand variables and no way to have a correct answer.

In my opinion, I think we'd be better served just ditching the autobalance script and letting players join teams as they please. People care more about winning than being on the winning team so I think that this would give them the freedom to actually play the characters their team needs and put control back in the hands of the players. While the multiplier is a nice touch, it's also caused a lot of people to just play 'whatever' ad nauseum for XP without any consideration of what might actually help their team. Compound this with the fact that half the time you switch builds you end up on the other team, and you have a system where people are not only unable to balance if they wanted to (quite often) but they're practically encouraged to not balance. (Not to mention, in dump rounds, the points from deathlogs alone due to switching already put one team in the hole tremendously)
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Re: New balancing system

Postby NintendoJesus » Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:20 am

There are so many reasons why this will not work. I'll give you a few.


1. First and foremost, the counter-log crew. JF's, Awet, KISS, to name a few. They can't stay on the same build for more than 5 minutes. So everytime they switch, one team or the other won't be able to play. One team won't be able to join the game, so they'll swap to the other team, then the counterloggers will come back and have to be on the opposite team, which will just cause them to relog something else.

2. MASSIVELY EXPLOITABLE. Holy Censored, can you imagine the lameness? Oh hey, we're ahead by 3 with 5 minutes to go in the round, I'll just sit in keeper for a bit and the other team can't enter the arena. That's just ONE example.

3. At this point in BoW history, with the current playerbase with have, which is like 25 people at best. Do we REALLY want to introduce a system that prevents people from joining a round?

4. I'll go ahead and say it. Judge, you need to realize that there is only ONE PERSON that plays BoW that thinks the current PR and Auto-balance system is broken enough to need GA's "balancing" or this convoluted teamswap nonsense. And that person is Awet. NOBODY ELSE GIVES A Censored! Seriously, nobody cares. Not one other person.
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Re: New balancing system

Postby NintendoJesus » Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:24 am

This poll needs a new option.

"I like the old system and GA's can take their teamswap command and shove it."
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Re: New balancing system

Postby Judge Dead » Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:29 am

Players should be in charge of balancing, yes, however they should not be forced to do so if they do not want to.


Not enforcing them to do it will just return the rage log that you told + no one to fight. Depend if you prefer get swaped on "losing" team and play, or stand in the stacked team and run in circle because all opponants goes to kepper.

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Re: New balancing system

Postby nukularpower » Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:22 am

Wait, what? No offense, but this sounds ridiculous. Please do not put this in. It might (and stress the might) have been a workable idea years ago, but with the current number of players, I am pretty sure this would definately lead to me deleting NWN again very quickly. It's bad enough that every time I try to char swap I get stuck on the other team, but as the others said, there is no reason to force people to switch to a team they were beating in the same round. Most people that play BoW want to have fun, not just stack teams, and things tend to even themselves out enough between rounds without any intervention at all.

The current system with GA's intervening WHEN TOTALLY NECESSARY (which should be practically never) is far preferable to this, IMO. Don't mean to bash on your work, but I think this is a really bad idea.
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Re: New balancing system

Postby fuzzylilkitten » Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:30 am

NintendoJesus wrote:This poll needs a new option.

"I like the old system and GA's can take their teamswap command and shove it."


Seconded.
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Re: New balancing system

Postby Tim888 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:26 am

Personally I don't really think that this new system will bring so many problems and I would like to give it a try. I see it as a useful tool to balance teams in an emergency case. I'm not sure about this, but maybe the PR difference should be around 125, to avoid exploits and make it work only in clear unbalance. Also, with the counterlogs, crashes, etc I would rather have the portal block and the teamswap available only if the PR difference stays over 100 (or 125) during 3 minutes for instance. Although this might be hard to do.

Moreover, maybe it should never happen in let's say the 5 last minutes of a round, to avoid the case that NintendoJesus mentioned where some player might go to keeper just to block the other team. More exploits are certainly possible, but I guess any player abusing it can get reported and fined as for anything else.

Anyway, this new system would make some unbalanced rounds rely on players' decisions who will have to choose who to balance. Hopefully the winning/overpowered teams can choose the most suitable player to be switched.

I don't really get why the "small" number of players should influence the decision to introduce this system. In my eyes, unbalancing problems happen far more often with a small number of players, and I would say that players who ("rage") log often leave their team in a more difficult situation. 4v6 is far more difficult for a team than 14v16. I understand that some players prefer farming a small team because they contributed to make some of their opponents log, but is that really what the whole server wants at this point? I'm also sure that many players prefer having a balanced round, even if they have to be switched to the losing team, than a boring round where your opponents who didn't leave spend more time buffing in base than they survive in the arena. You're glad to have beaten a team in a round, but they all left and there's 15 minutes left, so you either wait 15 minutes and you gain 5k more xp at the end, or try to win again in the other team. Is the second option so harsh? Of course, you might die a few times, you might not have 10 points won per points given by the end like you wish you had, but the day you'll be alone on the other team, maybe you'll prefer having someone joining you. :geek:

The autobalance system is good, having unbalanced rounds is rare, but if you play these weeks, you know that it happens. And I personally think that giving a try to a system which helps to balance these rounds (especially when there is no GA on) isn't a very bad idea.
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Re: New balancing system

Postby Restos » Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:13 pm

We never needed a GA to try balance teams, and we never will, as waffle stated a really accurate scenario for that to never ever existed in the first place.
Now, when we had Good vs Evil, it worked fine for years. The only real issue with that system was the copies for every character you needed for both sides if you wanted to play on the other team.

Right after the first auto-balance system was put in place I realized how awful it'd be if I wanted to balance the PR (or casters, etc) on the other team, but couldn't do it most of the time, because I kept joining the same team leaving that round totally imbalanced. If I'm not mistaken, most of the fault was the script itself, which had a delay updating teams' PR.

No system is perfect, but this new system will make things so much worse.
If I had to propose a solution I'd say to keep the current system as it is (no Good vs Evil), but when people talk to the Keeper of War, choose what team to be put on. That way you can try and balance a round if you wanted, but restrict it to switch sides 1 time per round. (That is, if you really wanted to help the losing team, but commiting to it). Meh, it could work IMO.
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