Nerftrain

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Nerftrain

Postby darkwaffle » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:59 pm

While it's a few years behind schedule, Shadow Dancer Avenue is a good place to start. Next stop, Greatsword Way, Onhit High, Chaotic Court and more!

All aboard!

(seriously, if we're gonna do this stuff just get it over with. quick like a bandaid. all at once.)
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Re: Nerftrain

Postby Judge Dead » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:04 am

Assuming this is not easy to deal with for players, the nerf is sensitive stuff, and have to be done step by step to measure the impact it has on the server balance.

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Re: Nerftrain

Postby Tim888 » Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:46 am

Better late than never.
Epic greatsword and bastard sword received small nerfs as well already. No huge change is under consideration but a few other classes and items (mainly items most likely) could indeed receive some adjustments to improve the balance of the server. However no build should become completely obsolete because of these possible changes.
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Re: Nerftrain

Postby darkwaffle » Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:36 am

Judge Dead wrote:Assuming this is not easy to deal with for players, the nerf is sensitive stuff, and have to be done step by step to measure the impact it has on the server balance.

JD.


I'll tell you what's not easy to deal with, and that's playing this game for years now with this absolutely ludicrous excuse for balance and itemization. The changes that need rolled back/modified aren't something that were ever carefully considered, calculated, or measured. They were dreamt up to fit a rough idea and dumped into the module with near complete disregard. Why should fixing them be any different? There's no shame in saying "This isn't working and we're getting rid of it." Some changes need to be mild, and some need to be more extreme. You shouldn't tip-toe around the latter just because you don't want to offend the players. We're way past that point; the introduction of the crazy items is what was offensive.

It's that kind of mentality that's just going to make this take even longer than necessary and probably not go as far as it truly should. The few remaining players are either novices who couldn't care less or the old players with vaults and friends loaded with rich characters who have more than enough means to adjust. Not to mention with a 70% reinc bank available and XP practically growing on trees, what difference does it even make? Characters can be remade with ease.

However no build should become completely obsolete because of these possible changes.


No build should have been made completely possible by these changes in the first place. Remove onhit KD and every greatsword wielder still plays fine; they just don't have a godmode weapon. Give every bastard sword tank the old bastard sword and they'll still be fine. There are few, if any, changes I think anyone wants to make that would completely invalidate a build (possible exception for res clerics). It would just bring them back down to earth.

And while I'm at it, add Resurrection Railway to the train's schedule.
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Re: Nerftrain

Postby NintendoJesus » Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:45 am

I am quite in love with my gaysword tyvm, and gay marriage is legal in my state. We are very happy together and no amount of your homophobic hate mongering will tear us apart.

Also, because I'm a contrarian, I would like to point out that the SD nerf has rendered Shadow Evade AC bonus advancement pre-16 worse than it is in vanilla NWN. You will undoubtedly counter with the increase in duration, a fair point, but PDK received a similar duration improvement and nobody is knocking down doors to have them nerfed despite getting 4 ab for only 4 levels and 1 feat of investment. In comparison, 4 ac for 10 levels and 2 feats of investment doesn't seem so bad.

#justsayin


Also, Karis doesn't like Oreos, isn't that weird?
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Re: Nerftrain

Postby Tim888 » Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:21 am

Paladins also are worse than in vanilla nwn since you can't combine divine spells at full power and divine favor gains 1 ab every four levels instead of three, yet nobody complains that they are underpowered. About PDKs, I wouldn't say that the improvement to the duration of their buffs is similar to the one for shadow evade. Shadow evade lasts 40 rounds + 3 rounds/SD level and you have three casts (enough to last permanently for a whole round). In classic nwn it gives one more ac until level 16, yes, but it lasts 5 rounds.

If you have 4 PDK levels, you gain 1 ab twice for 18 rounds (inspire courage), 2 ab against one single race for 4 minutes (oath of wrath), and if you have 20 CHA, 1 ab 3/5 of the time (rallying cry). So the duration improvement isn't exactly the same.

Also, SDs gain nice undispellable conceal and DR as well as AC. They also receive for free the prerequisites to epic dodge. Shadowdancer is a very good class with nice defensive bonuses, they just had to be toned down a bit.
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Re: Nerftrain

Postby darkwaffle » Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:40 pm

I have no problem with adjusting PDKs personally lol. For one feat and a few skill points they get a ton of power. Especially as a full BAB class.
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Re: Nerftrain

Postby NintendoJesus » Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:41 pm

Tim888 wrote:Paladins also are worse than in vanilla nwn since you can't combine divine spells at full power and divine favor gains 1 ab every four levels instead of three, yet nobody complains that they are underpowered.


Yes, taking a couple extra levels of a full bab class that needs class levels to get more spells/day anyway is really a drag. :roll:

Tim888 wrote:About PDKs, I wouldn't say that the improvement to the duration of their buffs is similar to the one for shadow evade. Shadow evade lasts 40 rounds + 3 rounds/SD level and you have three casts (enough to last permanently for a whole round). In classic nwn it gives one more ac until level 16, yes, but it lasts 5 rounds.


It definitely does not last an entire round unless you have 20 sd levels and I'm not sure why you are quoting durations to me anyway as I granted you the duration point in my first post, why repeat it? Lets go over the nerf level by level and see what sticks out as strange. Levels 4-5 haven't been touched, level 6 loses 1 ac, level 7 hasn't been touched, 8-12 loses 1 ac, 13+ is where the nerf actually kicks in and every split loses at least 2 ac, which seems weird to me, I would think that builds who invest the most levels should gain the most benefit. Why would the nerf target builds who are legitimate Shadowdancers vs the quick dip variety? Maybe this was intentional, maybe not. You said yourself that SD basically gets Edodge for free, so why make those builds the most attractive? You only need 5 SD levels to grab edodge if you're a monk, now you can just take 2 more and get +1 ac for nothing, and you didn't even feel the nerf. Seems odd, that's all.

Tim888 wrote:If you have 4 PDK levels, you gain 1 ab twice for 18 rounds (inspire courage), 2 ab against one single race for 4 minutes (oath of wrath), and if you have 20 CHA, 1 ab 3/5 of the time (rallying cry). So the duration improvement isn't exactly the same.


sim·i·lar
/ˈsimələr/
Adjective

Having a resemblance in appearance, character, or quantity, without being identical.

Shadow Evade goes from 5 rounds to 40+. PDK buffs go from 1 round to 20+. Not real sure where you're going with this.


Quick Edit: Let me give you an example on why SD nerfs are weird. My pally/monk/sd level splits are currently 21/6/13. I'm slow for a monk, but going 13 SD levels was beneficial. But now, since the difference between SD bonus AC from 7 to 13 is only 1, I'm better off going 23 pally/10 monk/7 SD. Same ab, same ac, but now I'm faster and have better HP and longer buff durations. And that's only because I need the pally bonus feat. SD bonus AC is now only marginally better than monk AC progression and only before level 10.
Last edited by NintendoJesus on Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nerftrain

Postby NintendoJesus » Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:44 pm

darkwaffle wrote:I have no problem with adjusting PDKs personally lol. For one feat and a few skill points they get a ton of power. Especially as a full BAB class.



Probably true, though I don't see many of them for whatever reason.
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Re: Nerftrain

Postby Anahire » Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:04 am

As NJ, I can say SD levels become useless.
Directly compare with monk levels, and you see it becomes bad investment in terms of char building.

Maybe the intention was to balance the fact they can grasp E-dodge while keeping dodge AC bonus in FT situations and 5 more AC... In 1vs 1 ok, can be a bit unbalanced, but 1 vs 2 or more, you feel quickly E-dodge is only active once per round with the actual or latest opponent. And BOW seems to have more players.

So it stays the concealment that can be attractive regarding its progression. But again, is it really usefull versus all opponents who have BF feat? I'm not well informed, so if someone can explain me exactly with numbers and % what the interaction between BF and concealment ?
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