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Re: Nerftrain

Postby Tim888 » Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:29 am

NintendoJesus wrote:
It definitely does not last an entire round unless you have 20 sd levels and I'm not sure why you are quoting durations to me anyway as I granted you the duration point in my first post, why repeat it? Lets go over the nerf level by level and see what sticks out as strange. Levels 4-5 haven't been touched, level 6 loses 1 ac, level 7 hasn't been touched, 8-12 loses 1 ac, 13+ is where the nerf actually kicks in and every split loses at least 2 ac, which seems weird to me, I would think that builds who invest the most levels should gain the most benefit. Why would the nerf target builds who are legitimate Shadowdancers vs the quick dip variety? Maybe this was intentional, maybe not. You said yourself that SD basically gets Edodge for free, so why make those builds the most attractive? You only need 5 SD levels to grab edodge if you're a monk, now you can just take 2 more and get +1 ac for nothing, and you didn't even feel the nerf. Seems odd, that's all.

Yes, my bad, it doesn't last a whole round but still I wouldn't compare the AB bonus for PDKs and the AC bonus for SDs knowing that usually PDKs are only gaining 1 ab part of the time after 4 or 5 minutes in the arena whereas SDs rarely run out of shadow evades. You were only comparing SDs and PDKs and the investment they required.

No other class gives such regular and frequent bonuses as SD did. SDs were gaining 1 ac every three epic levels, it was more like free bonuses as well as bonus feats, bonus to conceal, bonus to DR than a real investment. One of these bonuses had to be disminished.

You are saying that the nerf affects legitimate SDs more than those with less SDs levels, but first of all the old "algorithm" had to be replaced by a new one. It was a fix more than a nerf. We are not trying to encourage some builds more than others we're just trying to make something that would've been reasonable enough from the beginning. To be honest the "legitimate" Shadowdancers were those dex tanks with too much ac, too much conceal, too much DR. Yes they invest more into shadowdancer levels but we felt that for example 10 SD didn't require a nerf as big as 16 SD did, because epic SDs already gain other bonuses that are worth investing, even for 1 AC less than before. We could have nerfed all SDs out of 2 ac, at level 10, and let the epic bonuses how they were. But imo 10 SD should grant good defensive bonuses, and it does, enough for a tank to spend his other 30 lvls somewhere else, with their AC remaining good. What we tried to stop is that the accumulation of epic levels, 3, 6, 9 was making their AC go unreasonably high. More SD levels should give better bonuses but the gap had to be a bit smaller. Removing 2 AC from level 10 and letting old epic bonuses would have probably nerfed too much the builds that relied only on those 10 levels as defensive bonuses, not sure if that's what you'd have preferred ?

5 SD does nothing, you need improved evasion, yes you can be monk but anyway any SD nerf would have "encouraged" more 5 SD builds to get epic dodge if you see it that way. With 10monk/5sd you have speed, 3 ac and epic dodge, with 10 SD you have epic dodge, 3 ac and 5 more levels to spend. They are different possibilities but I don't see the first one becoming suddenly better than any other SD build. The problem wasn't about SD getting epic dodge easily, it was about the bonuses that they were gaining at the same time, we nerfed SDs that benefited from these bonuses. It didn't affect the builds which only take 5 SD levels to get epic dodge since they weren't benefiting from them. They gain 2 ac with 7 levels and it's good, but preepic SD levels weren't the most overpowered ones.

I think the bonuses had to be regular rather than getting almost nothing before level 10 and all bonuses after lvl 10. The buffs could also be coming very late in SD levels, a bit like BG's bull's strength ability but then it would break completely some builds, and that is not what we are looking for. It's the accumulation of the bonuses themselves at epic SD levels that was a problem, 10 SD didn't have bonuses as stupid as 16 SD did. 16 SD still offers more than 10 SD, in terms of feats, conceal, DR, AC. Just because these legitimate SDs invested levels in being SD shouldn't mean that they deserved to be capable of standing alone against 5 enemy tanks, or runshooting a whole round without ever being hit by enemy monks like the pally SD xbower 23 16 1 used to.


Having a resemblance in appearance, character, or quantity, without being identical.

Shadow Evade goes from 5 rounds to 40+. PDK buffs go from 1 round to 20+. Not real sure where you're going with this.

Once again, shadow evade is up almost all the time (unless you don't die in the 20-25 first minutes of a round), PDK buffs are up for only a few turns. so let me say it this way, the durations are very different, not similar.

Quick Edit: Let me give you an example on why SD nerfs are weird. My pally/monk/sd level splits are currently 21/6/13. I'm slow for a monk, but going 13 SD levels was beneficial. But now, since the difference between SD bonus AC from 7 to 13 is only 1, I'm better off going 23 pally/10 monk/7 SD. Same ab, same ac, but now I'm faster and have better HP and longer buff durations. And that's only because I need the pally bonus feat. SD bonus AC is now only marginally better than monk AC progression and only before level 10.

With 21 6 13, your SE lasts longer and you have 6% more concealment and 3 DR. You might prefer monk speed over this but that's up to you, imo 23 10 7 doesn't make the 21 6 13 lose all its interest.
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Re: Nerftrain

Postby darkwaffle » Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:05 pm

I propose the following for SD: +1 ac per 5 levels pre up to 10, +1 per 3 after 10. At level 10, shadow evade also casts mage armor when used.

level 5 = +1
level 10 = 2 + 1
level 13 = 3 + 1
level 16 = 4 + 1
level 19 = 5 + 1
level 22 = 6 + 1

Net self AC change is -1 for most levels, but AC "ceiling" is lowered and dispellability is increased. Additionally, 'splashing' SD is less lucrative AC ac scale is reduced pre-10.
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