Greater Rod of XXXXXX

Give your thoughts and ideas.

Moderator: Moderator

Re: Greater Rod of XXXXXX

Postby darkwaffle » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:21 am

I think casters are too powerful against poor characters and but still lack potency (efficiency might be the right word) against rich characters. A tank running around with 50/45/45 saves is quite possible and nearly untouchable; it's not impossible but it takes a lot of luck frankly and you just don't have the spell slots to be wasting them like that.

Maybe a counterweight to more "Greater" rods would be some improved spellslot gear for casters? Though the problem with that is I hate to give spammers more ammunition.
goddamn 1s
User avatar
darkwaffle
Keeper of War
 
Posts: 72
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:52 pm

Re: Greater Rod of XXXXXX

Postby Restos » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:29 pm

Well, that is why we only see spammers (as in: clerics and mages using nothing but ice storm) than DC mages.
What Karis says is pretty much true, but I'd hate to see mages buffed instead of the desired effect.

I don't see many poor tanks buying greater rods from the begining, so this change will only help richer characters who can afford them.
User avatar
Restos
Keeper of War
 
Posts: 128
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:57 pm

Re: Greater Rod of XXXXXX

Postby NintendoJesus » Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:35 pm

darkwaffle wrote:I think casters are too powerful against poor characters and but still lack potency (efficiency might be the right word) against rich characters. A tank running around with 50/45/45 saves is quite possible and nearly untouchable; it's not impossible but it takes a lot of luck frankly and you just don't have the spell slots to be wasting them like that.

Maybe a counterweight to more "Greater" rods would be some improved spellslot gear for casters? Though the problem with that is I hate to give spammers more ammunition.




I totally agree with you, but that is only because you refuse to play the spam game or use Gsanct. If you were to load out 15 DBF's, even if they make the save, it won't matter.

Look at it this way, most characters try to get more kills than they give. This isn't even in question for a caster. You play a DC disabler because it is more fun and far more honorable. But not everyone feels that way.

You talk about spell slots. You think that having enough spell slots to only kill one person isn't enough. How many IS enough? If having enough to kill 5 people is good, then why don't casters have 5.0 base PR?


Let's say you have to create a caster and I have to create a tank and we have to fight to the death for 100 Trillion dollars. You win 100 times out of 100.

Your idea of a caster is having enough spells to disable an entire team. What does that say about caster balance? Or caster PR? I don't run into the arena on my tanks fully expecting to kill everyone on the other team. I hope to get a kill or 2 before I die.


The truth is, PR has never reflected the actual potential of casters on BoW. And thus I have no sympathy for them and feel no need to buff them. Sorc PR is what 1.6? 1.7? So 2 people have to die for every time you die and you've had a good round. And don't even get me started on druids. Rainy gave them more damage than sorc spammers and yet their PR remains the same.


Casters are devastating to a team full of tanks. Just because one tank out of 5 has enough saves to live for a few minutes doesn't mean casters are suddenly underpowered for their PR.
NintendoJesus
Keeper of War
 
Posts: 97
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:01 pm

Re: Greater Rod of XXXXXX

Postby akdul2 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:08 pm

its not about tanks vs casters.

if (ideally) a healer's job is to support his whole team so that none of them die then why isn't a mage's job to disable the enemy team so that they all die.

and what does a single tank fighting a single mage 100 times have to do with it? a single tank isn't on the same level as a single mage, that is like comparing a single heal kitter to a team healer.

the mage is the queen. tanks are pawns, some tanks are rooks, monks are knights and bishops. team cow is the king (check mate) 8-)
User avatar
akdul2
General of War
 
Posts: 47
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:22 am

Re: Greater Rod of XXXXXX

Postby darkwaffle » Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:17 pm

I do have a somewhat slanted point of view as I choose to not use any spam spells and play a wizard lol, but you have to think about things differently when you have to prep your spells. Wizards don't have the luxury of being able to have, essentially, their maximum possible casts of any of their valuable spells available at any given time. If I still have mind spells left but no dispels, those spells are rendered practically useless. A sorc on the other hand can just turn them into Flame Arrow or NEB or Breach or Sheath or Mantle or GDispel or Dispel or whatever else useful occupies those levels. Memorizing those 'limited' application spells is much more of a hindrance and essentially a gamble; sure DBF may do a lot of damage but it's also useless against a huge spectrum of characters, I generally don't think I can afford something like that.

Spell slots aren't measured in people, but in buffs. Turn it around, you think that having rods that render almost any given character completely immune to almost every mage spell isn't enough? You can already buy as many rods as you want and you think each character should have 3-4x as many readily available rod buffs? In an absolute optimal (in terms of firepower, you'd be squishy as hell but ignore that for now) setup a mage can get what, 12 mords maximum on a sorc? And I can have a million spells but if you've got the one buff that makes you immune to them, fat lot of good it does me. Further, not only can almost everything a mage does be prevented by rods, but also cured.

I don't expect to disable an entire team, but if I do I know that it has more to do with my oppositions carelessness than my own prowess (I'm a great mage, but there's no sense denying I can't be almost entirely mitigated by rods. Karis and nike's old dex tanks were quite proof enough of this, if they're mindful of their rods I almost have to ignore them.) I would like to have a fighting chance of disabling almost any given character (just like you build a tank with high AB so that you've got a chance of KDing everything, investing so heavily into a spell DC is not much different from investing heavily into AB), which in general I do in terms of DC, I just don't have the option of trying even more than once or twice with my most potent spells against characters that still only have something like a 1/5 chance of failure. Compound that small chance with extremely limited attempts and preventative/curative rods and it doesn't look good for the caster. Just because you aren't dying doesn't mean you're not 'cowing', and just because you land a spell doesn't mean you've earned points.

I agree that they have a lot of unrealized potential (or should maybe even be worth more PR), but I don't think there's a perfect solution without turning back into that "personal PR" impossible-to-define system discussed eons ago. Obviously a caster in my hands is probably worth less than it really should be in most situations because you're right, my spells:points efficiency is good, really good. But if you account for that value with more PR, you also have to suffer every novice/practicing player tacking on even more PR to their team and dying for more without producing any more than usual. I don't know the answer really, do you balance around the outlier or the norm?


I think divine casters are a different discussion really, they've got completely different strengths and weaknesses, though I definitely agree druid has been horribly pigeonholed into lolspam.
goddamn 1s
User avatar
darkwaffle
Keeper of War
 
Posts: 72
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:52 pm

Re: Greater Rod of XXXXXX

Postby NintendoJesus » Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:35 pm

Again, I don't disagree with anything you've said. I would point out, however, that just like there are good mages and bad, there are good tanks and bad. For every tank that uses his rods correctly, there are 10 that don't. If everyone played to optimal skill level, casters would be worth even more and tanks would be worth even less.

Playing a Wizard who doesn't mem any Gsancts is self gimping, not that there is anything wrong with it.

As for Rod's rendering tanks immune to mages, it certainly makes it difficult, but you can cast 2 spells for every 1 rod. Nobody is truly immune to casters.
NintendoJesus
Keeper of War
 
Posts: 97
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:01 pm

Re: Greater Rod of XXXXXX

Postby NintendoJesus » Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:45 pm

akdul2 wrote:its not about tanks vs casters.


Why isn't it?


if (ideally) a healer's job is to support his whole team so that none of them die then why isn't a mage's job to disable the enemy team so that they all die.


You are making my case for me. Caster's PR is not reflective of their actual effect on the game.

and what does a single tank fighting a single mage 100 times have to do with it? a single tank isn't on the same level as a single mage, that is like comparing a single heal kitter to a team healer.


Again, that is exactly the point. PR by definition is your PERSONAL power rating as compared to another character. In today's BoW, this mechanic is more important than ever, since there are never more than 10-15 people online max. What you are saying is that a tank has NO CHANCE against a mage, which is exactly what I'm saying. So why is it, now that games are rarely more expansive than 5 vs 5 would we want to FURTHER increase the gap between tanks and casters? It makes no sense. You argue in one thread to nerf bastard sword and gaysword, and yet you are okay with casters that can kill entire teams? What argument are you even trying to make?

the mage is the queen. tanks are pawns, some tanks are rooks, monks are knights and bishops. team cow is the king (check mate) 8-)


BoW no longer has a player base to support a game of chess. It must be checkers.
NintendoJesus
Keeper of War
 
Posts: 97
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:01 pm

Re: Greater Rod of XXXXXX

Postby akdul2 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:33 pm

i just don't think mages are that bad
User avatar
akdul2
General of War
 
Posts: 47
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:22 am

Re: Greater Rod of XXXXXX

Postby darkwaffle » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:14 pm

Depends if you mean bad as in "crappy" or bad as in "cause problems". I don't think they're underpowered by any means but I think a more extensive selection of Greater rods is just going to give even more of an edge to those already "nearly invulnerable to mages" characters.
goddamn 1s
User avatar
darkwaffle
Keeper of War
 
Posts: 72
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:52 pm

Re: Greater Rod of XXXXXX

Postby NintendoJesus » Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:10 pm

darkwaffle wrote:Depends if you mean bad as in "crappy" or bad as in "cause problems". I don't think they're underpowered by any means but I think a more extensive selection of Greater rods is just going to give even more of an edge to those already "nearly invulnerable to mages" characters.



Maybe. I don't think most people want Greater Rods because they need more casts and have ran out of room in their inventory. You are the only person I know who that has ever happened to. Lol
NintendoJesus
Keeper of War
 
Posts: 97
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:01 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Suggestion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

cron